Class Size

AIR DATE: Monday, October 19th 2009
POSTED BY: JULIE SABATIER
Photo credit: onbangladesh / Creative Commons

Oregon ranks 49th in the nation in student-to-teacher ratios, according to a recent study (pdf) by the National Center for Education Statistics. On average, Oregon public schools have 19.4 students for each teacher. Washington didn't fare much better with an average of 19.2 students per teacher. Measuring student/teacher ratios are not exactly the same (pdf) as measuring class size, though the numbers are related. So, Oregon may have even bigger classes than the report suggests. How much does that actually matter?

Some academics argue that reducing class size won't solve underlying problems in the education system. They claim student success has more to do with a teacher's approach. Class size remains at the top of the list for others, who say smaller groups of students get more individual attention from their teachers and obtain a better education as a result.

Do you remember how many kids were in your classes? Did that make a difference for you? Is class size something you consider when choosing a school for your child? Why or why not?

GUESTS:

Tagged as: portland · teaching

Photo credit: onbangladesh / Creative Commons

In the 1960's, there were 27 kids in my class, one teacher and it was rare to have a substitute.  Now, my friend's children have 19 in thiers, they serve as assistants in their kids schools daily and have substitutes continually.  I am unsure why our public school system is less effective now except friends I know who are teachers often say the kids require more attention than before. Another relative is a Special Ed teacher in WA.  She only has 5 students.  Again, no Special Ed classes in the late 1960's.  It seems things have just changed. We now have different demographics,  have needs to teach in other languages, have parents with more demands who have less time to spend with their children.  I hope there is a solution for the childrens benefit.  I feel fortunate to have been in public school at a time when resources seemed to meet the needs of the time.

hazelfern —

I am currently a substitute teacher and I work because teachers have to attend workshops related to "No Child Left Behind".  They also miss work due to illness, deaths in their families, car accidents, and impassable roads.  (Not all problems happen between June 20 and August 15.)  It would be really helpful if the bad behavior of students toward substitutes would disappear so continuity of their learning could continue even when the regular teacher is away. Parents should teach children to respect substitutes instead of treating them as if they are lesser teachers, which they are not.  Many time they have more years of experience than the regular teacher and feel frustrated that the children's behavior prevents them from teaching. We're all in this together.

bimmerboomer —

I have been a teacher for about 8 yrs now in Pdx.Each year I have had at least 1 class that has had between  39 & 45 students. Administrators always have reasons—scheduling, unexpected enrollment, etc.Each year I make sure that the class runs smoothly.Students have no idea what they're missing.But I know.I had the privilege of attending well financed schools in CT & VT. I was never in my life in a classroom of more than 20.Many of my classes in college had only 10 to 12.The atmosphere in such a class is different.Rather then teacher energy invested in management of bodies and distractions,energy is invested in dialogue.There is an inviting ease and openness in small classes.When it comes to the humanities,where discussion and dialogue is key, where a strong student-teacher relationship truly makes a difference, where there should be moments for contemplation and questioning;a small class is vital.

surumi —

Agreed! And, besides the humanities (I teach various social studies courses, as well as Spanish), math & science teachers truly struggle with their ability to assist students with comprehension problems or labs, due to the large numbers they experience in their classes. Regardless of what we all teach, our energy certainly should be invested in the various forms of dialogue we NEED to share with our students!

Essie —

Of course I can teach English to a class of 40. I talk. They listen. I hand out questions. They write their answers. A handful of students rise to the top. The quiet ones sink into the corners. Everything looks good.

I have a three year old, and I know that one of the things I am compromising by living here is his education. But there are many other things that I like about Portland. And I will do what I can to be sure that he has opportunities outside school to explore ideas and engage in meaningful dialogue. But he is the kind of kid who will do well wherever he is. It is the other kids who are losing out—kids and parents who don't even know what they're missing.

surumi —

The single most important element in education is the connection between studnent and teacher.  In large classes that connection may never be created and the trust is never established.  Students must take risks to learn to write, or speak, or even do math.  Mob control isn't teaching.  Handing out assignments, or collecting papers, or multiple choice tests aren't teaching.  The interaction between the teacher and students are where teaching and learning happen.  Large classes limit direct interaction.  As a writing teacher I know that the key for most students to effective writing is rewriting.  But re-grading a paper doubles a teacher's workload for that assignment.  Some best practices are put aside because there just isn't time enough to make them work.  The saddness is that students suffer. 

janeberryeddings —

In  2007, the Chalkboard Project fought hard to reduce K-1 class size to 15 students. This legislation was supported by research and the will of Oregonians, but did not make it through the session. Stable and adequate funding has been an issue in our state for years and without the hope of systematic reforms on the horizon, Oregon’s school districts will have to continue to make tough decisions when it comes to spending their limited funds. K-1 class size reduction is still a wise investment and so is teacher effectiveness. Research shows that having an effective teacher in the classroom is the most important factor in raising student achievement. We must focus our efforts on research-based practices to raise student achievement. -Sue Hildick, President, Chalkboard Project

ChalkboardProject —

Also consider how focused the classes are.

If students are grouped without regard for interests and ability, two students/class can be too many.  But if students are all close to the "same page", even a large lecture hall works, as demonstrated in many universities.

The issue is allowing enough flexibility for the students to re-group as needed to be in classes with intellectual peers.

BardlyG —

With class size I wonder how much is about attention from teacher to student, versus simply the inherent nature of having a large group of people together and how they function? I never liked large classes, but I think the reason I didn't like them was because a large group of students was overwhelming and tended to be more collectively annoying and also more likely to misbehave. I don't know whether the attention the teacher was able to give me individually, in these larger classes, made much of a difference. I perhaps think, large groups of students don't function well as a cohesive community, because of the nature of youthful personalities, regardless of how good the teacher is. Socially we have all declined and depressed our abilities, so it has become ever harder for larger classes to function effectively.

scottmil —

Students thrive when they are a part of a learning community and one that allows for diversity of thinking. However, once there are so many students in a class & students now feel like a number, or a sardine crammed into an already small space, it is NOT in their best interest for a true learning environment. 

As a teacher, I take pride in creating a space where students feel safe to discuss topics, debate issues, and learn how to listen to one another. When I have almost 40 students in my space, inevitably, there are many times when students do not get the opportunity to speak, write, etc., as PART of the group.Small class sizes and effective teaching practices equal an incredible chance for true learning and community-building. Any administrator or "higher up" individual who does not address the correlation between the two, means that students are short-changed from a learning environment to which s/he is entitled. 

Essie —

Class size is extremely important, as it can determine the ability of the teacher, no matter how "qualified", to effectively control and manage the classroom, assess through observation, develop personal relationships with students, and actually handle the work load (lesson plans, grading papers and so on). With a large classroom, students are left to solve social issues on their own without teacher mediation...therfore learning innapropriate social skills (bullying, oppression etc.).  Additionally, more time in the classroom is wasted "shushing" students and repeating directions.

Previous Theatre and English Teacher at Philomath High School

Alice April

aliceapril —

Due to my husband's job (he's military), we have moved frequently.  My children have experienced school's in 5 different states.  I have worried about thier education with every move, but I never thought that Oregon would cause me the greatest amount of worry.  We were all set for dissapointment when we moved to Hawaii, but my children had a far better education there then they are getting here.  My son is one of 42 in his 8th grade humanities class and my kindergartener is one of 26 in his (dual immersion) class.  In comparison to Madison, Wisconsin where kindergarten classes did not exceed 16.  I don't think that anywhere we have lived have classes exceeded 24.  I can tell that the connection between my children and their teachers is just not as strong. 

mom2threeboys —

In the 1940s I attended an elementary school with one and a half years' worth of students in each class. It was by far the best school I ever attended. It established my sense of accomplishment as a student. The teachers were great, although they had large class sizes, 30 or more students, and not enough books. I attended many different schools in my elementary and high school career, and this school stands out in my memory as a wonderful place.

I was in the fifth, sixth and seventh grades.

dawn —

It is very hard to teach and learn in large classes – and Oregon’s classes are too large. Quality of instruction is extremely important – and teachers can't do their best work when faced with a classroom overflowing with kids. Oregon classes have been too big for years due to funding issues. The revenue measures passed by the Oregon Legislature last session are being challenged and could be overturned– in January we will vote to see if this crucial money will be invested in schools and public programs. If Oregon Measures 66 & 67 don’t pass, class sizes will increase and yet again Oregon’s children will not receive the same education opportunities as their national counterparts. Read more about why these measures must pass- www.stand.org/or/revenue.

 

rebeccag —

This issue is a no-brainer.  Class size matters for many of the issues stated in previous comments.  I taught 34 years in a large urban high school (Bay Area) and now supervise beginning teachers in an MAT program in Portland.  If what passes for engaging curriculum in some schools continues, then class size will continue to be debated.  If, however, teachers are encouraged to create innovative, original curriculum, free of the pressure of test-driven administrators, achievement will rise.  I would be very wary of someone who left the classroom after a few years to "make policy."  Talk to teachers who have taught decades, talk to teachers who intend to teach decades.  This is a non -issue.  The real issue is why we can't find the political will to actually have the kind of schools we know will work.  I propose a new discussion topic on what it actually means to educate a person.

BGreene —

"The real issue is why we can't find the political will to actually have the kind of schools we know will work.  I propose a new discussion topic on what it actually means to educate a person."

Amen.

I am a recent UO graduate. Many of my classes were over 100 students (my first few college classes were 300-500!). When I was in high school, most of my classes were over 30.  The few times I had classes with just 10-20 students, it was AMAZING. I knew the teacher's name and he/she knew mine. I knew the other students around me. We all had chances to engage, discuss, explore our curiosities and discover new ones. I will never forget those classes and the lessons I learned there. I know what I missed and it, for lack of a better word, sucks.

AmiraD —

"I propose a new discussion topic on what it actually means to educate a person."


I agree. When babies are born they are just the most amazing and voracious learning machines in the world. They have something like two or three times the brain neurons that adults do, so their potential is astounding. So what happens to them that derails that desire for learning and what can we do differently? I have thought about this for years.

Tom D Ford —

I just bought two new books by Alison Gopnik, a Developmental Psychology Scientist Professor at UC Berkeley, about babies, how they learn and how they think.

"Scientist in the Crib: What Early Learning Tells us about the Mind".

"The Philosophical Baby: What Childrens' Minds Tell Us about Truth, Love, and the Meaning of Life".

Terri Gross interviewed her on Fresh Air and Stephen Colbert had her on. A very different view of babies from the historical norm.


It sounds like what I have been thinking about and I look forward to reading both.


She's on a book tour, maybe she could be enticed into a TOL show. I'd love to hear her talk and answer questions for an hour.

Tom D Ford —

It's much more about the teacher then the class size, and results vary.  I have been very happy with edu results from a foreign public school where each teacher  has 50 students from 7AM until noon, and onther 50 from 1PM until 5 pm.  Classes join on Saturdays.

Unfortunately, the USA does not have its act together on teaching for content, and edu WILL be outsourced (sooner than later).  Too bad, I'm from several generations of teachers and have taught as well. My spouse is a teacher too.  We homeschooled while living in PNW and volunteered in public schools as a family. My sisters each homeschooled while they taught in Public Schools themselves (this is VERY common among USA teachers, and for good reason.)

Class size is important, but secondary to the core mission. We need to get that right, but it can't happen with current leadership.

So sad.

jwswamp —

Comments are now closed.



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